Transition music (2:00):

Carlos Martinez (02:09):

Good morning, good afternoon, good evening and welcome to another Work like a Laker podcast. I'm Carlos Martinez

 

Mega Riksen (2:17):

And I'm Megan Riksen.

 

Carlos Martinez (2:18):

And with us today we have a couple of our colleagues from, from the Career Center. I'll let them introduce themselves.

Rachel Becklin (02:25):

Hi, I'm Rachel Becklin and I've been the Career Center now for 11 years. And I do Career Advising with students, work with faculty, work with our employer partners. I'm doing just a lot of general Career Advising and internship development.

 

 

Susan Proctor (2:41):

And I'm Susan Proctor. I've been in the Career Center for about 8 and a half years. And of that time, I've worked always on the Employer Relations Team. So primarily I work with our employer partners to have them hire our fabulous Lakers as well as plan some activities that bring our students and players together to help make some good matches there.

Carlos Martinez (03:04):

Nice. And you know, we thought this would be a cool mix because we all work with students and we all work with employers, but Susan's primary role is on the employer side and then Rachel, Megan and my role are all prime. Well you could say prime, you could argue primarily we work mostly with students. And so, the topics had asked, you saw in the, in the, the heading w would be resumes. And so we all know that depending on what side you're on, your answers can be a little different. Like we've said in past episode, there are no universal answers when it comes to this job search process.

And so, you know, things will always vary. And what kind of do our best is having a conversation, another adviser chat, if you will. So, so I guess the way I'd like to start it is when, whenever I meet with it could be students or Alums. A statement I've heard and I keep hearing every once in a while, is, you know, Hey Carlos, I know I've had some good experiences, but you know, if I could just fix this resume, I know I'll get the job.

 And so, we know that's not a hundred percent correct right there. There's going to be, it helps you maybe get your foot in the door and what do you think about that?

Megan Riksen (04:20):

Right? Yeah. I think it's important to realize that the Resume is just one piece of the puzzle. And depending on how well you've done some of the other components of a job search, it might not even be as important of a piece because things like networking can often go a longer way. But that being said, it still is a document that's communicating your story, what you're all about. So, it needs to be an accurate and full representation of that.

 

Rachel Becklin (4:50):

Absolutely. And I think it's also a good practice in terms of understanding what your own skills are, what your own experiences are, and how does that fit into the world of work and what it is that you're looking for. Because ultimately you're going to have to communicate that in an interview. You're going to be talking about that to potential employers. So, you want to make sure that you've gone through that practice of understanding what those skills are and how it really relates to the jobs that you're looking for.

 

Susan Proctor (05:19):

Yeah, for sure. It's one of many keys that kind of unlock the same block, right? One of the keys that sort of can unlock that door to what is your next step. And it's a key that you often leave behind. So, it's important to have that document and have that communicate things.

And I think that key to changes depending, or the, maybe it's the locker, the door that changes depending on what you're applying for. So it has to be nimble and fluid as a document. So I think it's important to think about what you're putting into that. But to know that this is not the ultimate right thing, that document is going to change based on, on what the needs are of that particular job or employer too.

Carlos Martinez (05:57):

We know, we all know that it's for the employer. For some of you it might be for maybe a Graduate Program with scholarships. So there's different, there's, there's different audiences for that Resume. But depending on the size of the organization, a common term or word that you may or may not hear is you might hear the phrase ATS. We, we know it as Applicant Tracking Systems. There might be a few different names based on the company you're working with. Does anybody want to share a little more about that?

Susan Proctor (06:29):

Sure. So many employers especially in this digital age now, we'll use an Applicant Tracking System as a way to collect and gather applications from individuals for open positions and maybe just keep Resumes on file for future opportunities as well. And it's also a way for them to filter and sort through. So, we all just visited some employers this week that said there could be, you know, upwards of 150- 200 resumes that come in for a particular job.

And often there's just one or two or three maybe individuals on an HR team that are waiting through those for one position, let alone they may have multiple. And so an applicant tracking system is a way that they will use sometimes to filter out maybe the highest or the best matching qualifications. So, I think when I think about an Applicant Tracking System, I often think keyword how, what are the key words that are in the application, or I'm sorry, in the job posting, or what are the key things that they're seeking for, for someone in that position? And do those keywords come up in this resume? It's a way to sort of match the skills that they're looking for in the skills that someone says that they represent.

Carlos Martinez (07:44):

Yeah, that, that, that's a real good point. I think key works are key right when it comes to standing out in these systems, because again, it's not a human right. You might know somebody at the company, you might have a friend who tells you that you know your experiences or just what they're looking for. But if you don't communicate that properly on a resume, it might never get to an actual human who can, who can maybe decipher what your experiences mean, right? So, you want to think about things like maybe let's say if you're in the Human Services field, in your organization, cost of folks who work with customers, but then the company you're applying to cost them clients, right?

It's just a terminology at that point. But you're referring to the a very similar job, the exact same thing. You better believe I'm going to recommend that you change every single, you know, customer to client or vice versa, just based on what your goal is at that point. Go on their websites or websites and other, another good indicator of the type of language that they use. So you want to use the language in that industry, but then maybe try and get a sense of what the language for that particular employer is, if you can. And that can make, that could take you a long way.

Rachel Becklin (08:47):

Sure. And I mean I always say it's an open note test that you're completing writing this resume because you have the job posting in front of you were they are literally saying, here is exactly what I want from this employee, this future employee. So, I think doing, that side by side comparison is kind of what you need to do, especially when we know so many resumes, now we're going through these ATS systems.

 

Rachel Becklin (9:17):

Yeah. And a couple of things that I have heard from employers in terms of formatting is keep it simple. You don't have to be fancy, you don't have to be really creative with the resumes that you're uploading to these systems because the systems are going to destroy that anyway. And keep it in a, in a plain text format. So stay away from tables and keep it really simple. As you're putting together that Resume, which is probably different advice that we would give when physically handing your resume to an employer, going to an event, things like that.

Carlos Martinez (09:51):

Yeah. And, and you know, sometimes the truth is it might be a small, small organizations, maybe 5 to 10 people even, you know, even under 50, I'd consider it small compared to a lot of a lot of organizations out there. And when, when that's the case, it might get straight to the committee, right?

Maybe there's only 50 or a hundred people applying and they say we can go through all of these. I've served on search committees where I've searched in the last year and a half and about five different search committee, sat grant Valley. And you can tell there are, maybe I feel guilty.

So, I know that I'm going to read through every single application because this is what I feel. I'm not giving them a fair shot if I don't, but there are people on the committee, so we'll say I give it five seconds and if, if, if it doesn't capture my interest, I'm going to the next one. So even if you get an actual person, everything we're saying still applies, right? Because you never know who's reviewing it. So you, you always want to pay careful attention and assume that that person doesn't know much about you at all. Even if, you know, it’s a friend.

Susan Proctor (10:50):

So, they say 5 to 15 seconds is the average that a recruiter might spend on our Resume, at least, unless it captures your attention. So I think, you know, like your open book tests, that's something I always say, you have the answer key right in front of you. So, make sure you're drawing and connecting the lines to the skills that you possess and the skills that they're asking for and the qualifications that they're asking for and do it soon and make it stick out.

You know, readability I think is a huge issue. So how do you, how do you bring those to the forefront? And even if it's from a job that you had quite a long time ago, there's ways to maybe put those skills upfront in a Skill Section or, or some kind of Objective up top, I think to, to draw that line to say, you know, here's my story and to draw that reader. And just like anything like with a podcast, do you want to draw people in and they're not going to give you a lot of time in this day and age, I think. And I think that happens outside of the resume and job seeking process just like it does in it.

So, storytelling I think is a way to think about that is telling your story and, and doing it quickly and concisely and in a timely fashion.

 

Megan Riksen (11:55):

Yeah, and I think that's especially important when you have a variety of experiences that you need to kind of pull together into that story, into that kind of complete package. I'm thinking specifically about our Alums are career changers who might be listening who might be thinking, if I just read through your Resume chronologically, I might be a little confused because you might have worked in a couple of industries, multiple different types of roles gone back to school later in life, something like that. So, I think having something like an Objective or Professional Summary up at the top, especially in those cases to kind of give those three or four really important things about your story, kind of telling them right off the bat at the beginning can be a, a useful strategy.

 

Susan Proctor (12:42):

And I think the same can be said for our students that maybe don't have a lot of experience is how do I incorporate some of the classroom projects or someone's my Extracurricular Activities or Leadership opportunities drawing that line from things I've done outside of the World of Work and in the classroom and in other spaces too, to draw that line to the, the requirements of the physician can happen as well.

Megan Riksen (13:06):

Absolutely.

Rachel Becklin (13:08):

That's good.

Carlos Martinez (13:10):

I also happen to work with International Students sometimes, right? Every once in a while. And I think it's important to point out that the Resume norms that we're talking about are pretty, it's pretty much an American context, right? Like I know for example, in in some Countries it's pretty standard to have things like your religion, your picture, your gender, and we, we can all share a few of that in the U.S that's not really the practice that you want to follow.

And so oftentimes we redo the whole resume. So, if you're thinking of maybe working abroad, it's important also factor those things saying I need a resume for Europe or I need a resume, you could do a regionally by like a, a part of the world or you could do a country specific. And my advice would be country-specific if you can, because even countries right next to each other can vary quite a bit, sometimes

Rachel Becklin (14:03):

We have some great resources on our website on how to work abroad as well that have some good cultural guides that the library has put together for us. And so they might have some good tips on what to include in those types of resumes.

Carlos Martinez (14:17):

Yeah. And some employers in the U.S will automatically eliminate you if they see any indicators of sex, race, religion, some of these protected classes, what they're called. And it's really helpful for you because it's to make sure that folks aren't discriminating against you. So, they'll just put, they'll make that rule for everyone.

If the people who are going to review application can tell about one of these factors about you that should be protected, you may not even be considered. So, be careful. And again, we're a resource also, so come talk to us. Right, of course. What about references?

 

Rachel Becklin (14:55):

References, good question. So, references they can be included. If you're going to submit a Resume, oftentimes an employer will ask if they're looking for them and we would probably recommend good Professional References. So that would include faculty previous professors. You've had Advisors, former supervisors, current supervisors. We're not looking for family members typically in these type of references. Really keeping them more from those people you've had professional interactions with. And those can be on a whole separate document.

They don't have to be scrunched into the bottom of your Resume. So don't feel like you have to use that. That precious space for references. Keep those on a separate document. You know, unless your Resume does leak on to a second page, maybe there'd be space there. But for the most part we're looking at three to six really professional folks that can speak to your work ethic, can speak to the type of student you are, the quality of work that you've completed. Just to give kind of that more well-rounded picture of who you are as an employee.

Carlos Martinez (16:07):

And I have a question. This is for anyone that has stumped some of the students that I work with. What if I worked the last two summers for my uncle who owned his own business, right? Or me or my parents who owned their own business. How would you address that without making it seem like I just got the hookup with, you know, my uncle, I didn't really have to do much work. Is there any advice you'd have for those people

Rachel Becklin (16:30):

That, I mean, that is a little tricky. I guess I would probably avoid it all cost putting a parent as a reference because yeah, I mean they're pretty obviously biased. If it's an uncle or someone a little bit further, I guess as long as what do you guys think? If you're upfront about it.  This is my uncle who owns the company.

 

Susan Proctor (16:54):

I would say, who else have you worked with?

 

Rachel Becklin (16:56):

Who else have you worked with?

 

Susan Proctor (16:57):

A reference for you. So maybe it's your uncle's business, but you have a colleague that can speak to your, to your work ethic. Or maybe you have a client or a customer that you worked for that could, could speak at that as well. That you could put on there. So think creatively. And if there isn't anyone else, maybe I would identify that. So, you know, uncle slash business owner, right? Single business owner, right. Or, you know, single person business owner.

 

Rachel Becklin (17:23):

 Typically, you're to be putting their job title on there. So there'll be hopefully able to make that connection that this is the owner.

Carlos Martinez (17:29):

Yeah. So I'll give, I'll give you an example from me. I worked with somebody last year who they were interested. It was, it was either Coast Guard or the US Navy. Right. And their summer job was working for a family member who taught Sailing and had some boats and they would run Cruises. And so, everything was super relevant at least to that, that boat part of it.

And I think what we ended up doing, because those military applications give you a lot of room to quote unquote explain things. He made a note on there, this is my uncle, but these are my actual all of my duties. And I think that that person had also served. And so, you know, when somebody who serves, they'll kind of give them the benefit of the doubt also. So we, we worked it out that way. Sometimes applications will, what are you, whenever you get tricky things in general many applications will give you the opportunity and it'll say something generic like add additional documents that you can add additional documents.

Maybe explaining something that might be confusing. And this was one example in that case where we both agreed that it was super, super relevant and it had been like 2 or 3 years where he had done this. And that's without counting, growing up around the business. And so he followed with central to his, his background story. And so we included it in there, but it's always a case by case. It's getting one of those things where we're definitely here to talk to you about. There's not always a right or wrong answer with any of this, so we can kind of talk our way through and figure it out together.

Megan Riksen (18:56):

So something interesting that I read from, or maybe I heard from one of our employer partners was about the phrase references available upon request. So, what is your thought process on that? What was interesting to you, about that comment?

Rachel Becklin (19:13):

I guess I've always just been of the mindset, I have them ready, include them if you can, because that's a great indicator that you've already done the legwork to let your References know that you are in the job market, you're seeking. They might get an email or a phone call at any point.

I would say in most cases, and I guess I don't even know this, from my perspective I've seen in a lot of cases employers are calling References after an interview, but that doesn't always have to be the case. If, if they're trying to narrow it down, it could potentially even be before an interview. So you wouldn't even have an indication you would have sent a Resume, and not had a clue. So now we want to hear,

Susan Proctor (20:00):

What they just said it was a red flag?

(three overlapping voices, hard to distinguish). 

That potentially maybe they have a reference or had a bad experience at a, at a prior position. And so, I found that interesting and I think that's more of an outdated practice than is happening now anyway. But just thought I wouldn't mention that. Why we were discussing references that maybe not a good phrase.

Carlos Martinez (20:20):

And, and, and I always tell people whenever an application asks for something, even if it says optional, most high quality candidates consider that a requirement. So everything on there that you're given an option to submit to them. If it says you can submit a video but it's optional, that means they want a video and some of the more competitive candidates are more than likely going to use that. It's not universal, but they're going to be including that video in there and with references specifically. What I'd like to share with people is one alert all your references before you put them on there and it doesn't have to be for every job. You could send a generic message like, Hey, I'm going to start applying to a few different places right now. Would you be okay if I list you as a reference your Resume?

I send them an updated version of my resume also because, right, you're right. Your reference might know about the job he did for them last summer, but they have no idea about the two student clubs that you were president for and they don't know about the internship that you're doing during the school year.

So, it gives them a more well-rounded view. And when I've done reference calls, when I was part of search committees, I can tell when someone has information and they could speak like richly about this candidate and I can tell where every single example answer that they're giving me. It's related to this one project they did two years ago and so it just, it wasn't as someone who was on the search committee, it wasn't really fulfilling.

I didn't really feel like I learned anything new about that candidate. And then when you're done, whether you, whether it's that you pause your Job Search or you've accepted the position, email all your references again and say hi, I don't know if you got a call, but I want to thank you so much for serving as a reference.

I've now accepted this position or I've decided to pass my job search for now. But I'm really grateful. Please let me know if I can be of help to you just to kind of give them some closure because I also know that when I get asked to be a reference, I'm waiting for that call in my mind, even if it's in the back of my head, I'm kind of thinking about how I'm going to answer the question and it kind of feels weird when I get, when I bump into that person six months status like, Hey, I'm working here now.

I never got the call, but I never, there wasn't closure there. So as someone who was going to advocate for you, it would have been nice to kind of know where you ended up

Rachel Becklin (22:34):

Because you might want to use them again. Exactly down the road. Right.

 

Susan Proctor (22:38):

Let me think. It's important to be thoughtful about what references you include. For my own story, I think even at Grand Valley for different jobs that I've applied for here, I've used a different references. I think it shows, or at least I tried to be thoughtful about making sure that some of the folks that were listed on there might be connected.

With the Department I was applying for, even if I hadn't had direct relationships with people in the Department, maybe folks that I know had worked with individuals in that department so that I knew that there was a comfort level there and showed that I had done my homework and had some idea of what those connections were looking like as well.

 

Rachel Becklin (23:17):

Yeah, and I think for a lot of our first- or second-year students wondering how am I going to get some good professional references for internships and things, it's a really good reason to get to know your faculty, to stop by and visit them during office hours and to start building those relationships early because they are going to be and can be some great references for you.

Susan Proctor (23:40):

And not to be afraid when you're done with that class to say, I've really enjoyed this. I learned a lot, you know, would you be willing to serve as a reference as I'm considering looking for an internship? And same with your internships when you're leaving, if you've had a good experience to make sure that you're asking your supervisor or if they would be willing to advocate for you in future. And it's a great way to just keep in touch and continue to build your Network.

Carlos Martinez (23:58):

And something that, that some of the folks listening might encounter is they ask and get told No, I've told people know that I can't be their reference before. Some of the common reasons are I really don't know you well enough to feel comfortable advocating for you, right? Because your references kind of sticking their neck out for you to an extent. And I've told other students know when I was the advisor of this organization, you were very inconsistent.

So, if they give me a call, I can tell them all the positives, but I'm also going to share that with them because I want to be honest. And if you ever get that type of answer, I want you just to, it's a good moment to kind of just have some self-reflection. Okay, this is something I need to fix about myself. Don't take it personal, the person is doing you a favor by telling you why they wouldn't be a reference for you because it would be much worse.

I know people who will say yes and get and be a bad reference cause they told me, oh they just asked me to be a reference. They didn't say it to be a good one. I think that's wrong personally. But you know, you might encounter some of those folks that you're asking for help also.

 

Rachel Becklin (25:01)

So, I should always ask.  

 

Carlos Martinez (25:03):

Always ask. And one way that I phrase it is, would you feel comfortable serving as a positive reference for me to kind of give them that hint? I don't, I don't need a gray area here.

Megan Riksen (25:14):

I don't want anything bad.

 

Rachel Becklin (25:16):

That was really great.

Carlos Martinez (25:17):

And so it's just another, you know, these, these are just the little tricks and tips you pick up along the way. We don't expect you to remember everything that we're talking about. Listen, again, if you have to, but you know, this is good information. Up next though, we're going to try new little segments.

So, if you've, if you've been following us since last year, we, we've been trying to update some things, make it more fun. We've probably done some of the earlier episodes where we're not recording this in February for all of you who don't know that we record these in advance. But it's called Would you Hire this Intern? and so I'm going to let me can take it away. I purposely did not make any of them so I could answer them.

 

Megan Riksen (25:57):

Great. Good. Hopefully we're all a little in the dark here. Okay. So, this is our fun segment where we get to kind of analyze some intern behavior and what we, what we think they should or should not be doing. So, the scenario is your intern gets her workload done on time and shows up every day when she's supposed to. A few times, however you've seen your intern on their personal Twitter account while at work. Would you hire this intern?

And you may talk about whatever would go into your thought process related to that.

Carlos Martinez (26:33):

The first off for me is context, right? If, if I know that I as an employer didn't get this intern enough job when we were, we were visiting an employer earlier this week and one of the things they told us was, you know, sometimes we tell the people, we tell the intern supervisor give them this amount of work and they're planning for two weeks, but the interns get it done in three days.

If I know I'm not giving that person enough work, I probably look the other way and take that as to note that I'm not doing my job probably. But if I know they have work to do it might depend how deep into the internship they're in. If it's a couple of days into it, I might, okay, maybe it's their first internship, but if it's deep into the internship and right. I, I'm giving this interest cause I'm thinking about maybe hiring them. I that's going to be at a minimum, it's going to be a red flag if I know they have other work to be doing.

Rachel Becklin (27:23):

And has it been addressed right? Have I said anything about this while I was onboarding the intern? Did we talk about any sort of here's what to do, not to do in regards to your phone or personal accounts? Would all be questions I guess I would be curious about.

Carlos Martinez (27:39):

Twitter, right? That's something to consider. Are they seeing our colleagues on Facebook when they're walking down the hall?

Megan Riksen (27:46):

Are they mirroring other behaviors?

Carlos Martinez (27:47):

Right. So, they, they, they might assume, okay, it's company culture. So I know as soon as I get my work done, I could sneak away these five minutes and keep up with the trend or whatever I'm interested in right now. Right. Yeah. That's another part of it also. Right.

Susan Proctor (28:01):

I would say if it was an issue or a cultural problem, I would hope that I would address it with that intern right then and there. Ask them questions about that and just clarify some expectations. If the first two things I heard were correct were they were there on time, we're responsible, we're getting their work done and doing that well, I do not believe that that would be a reason for me not to hire that person. However, I would hope to nip any bad practices in the bud. And personally, sometimes you're on social media for your work.

 

Rachel Becklin (28:36):

Could be a great thing.

Carlos Martinez (28:38):

The work is changing.

 

Susan Proctor (28:39):

Exactly.

 

Rachel Becklin (28:40):

Agreed.

 

Megan Riksen (28:42):

And that's the positive twist on this that, that we throw in here. So the positive twist would be that her tweets are promoting your company's brand. So that would be a little bit different scenario. Right? Right. The negative twist would be what if she's tweeting about how you heat up fish every day in the microwave and the office smells really bad. So, then office politics, right?

 

 Susan Proctor (29:06):

Again, I think there are better ways to handle that, right? For sure. In person and right. Sometimes that's not always the easiest thing to address, but hopefully as a Supervisor addressing any negative work behaviors that are happening in the work setting should happen right then.

Carlos Martinez (29:21):

And, and, and also I think it's good to take it to context. We all work at a University, so we're probably a lot more student friendly than a lot of folks would be. There are some people who won't hire you, right? No, no offense or buts. They might be a little more old school.

Megan Riksen (29:35):

Yeah. If you think about all the generations that are going to work in the workplace now, right?

 

Rachel Becklin (29:39):

Right five generations now interacting in the workplace.

Susan Proctor (29:42):

And so I think you know, if you as an intern or are listening to this ask before you go ahead and do that anyway. Just say, Hey, I've gotten my work done for today. Is it okay if I check some personal opportunities? So, you know, if your Supervisor is not setting clear boundaries for you, then it's, it's your job to ask. Ask that and to clarify your own boundaries rather than asking you for forgiveness later. For sure.

 

Rachel Becklin (30:05):

Communication is key.

 

Susan Proctor (30:06):

Yes.

Carlos Martinez (30:09):

It's important also for you to understand as an intern that you're not expected to be perfect. You're just expected to try, right. You're expected to try your best. The idea of an internship is that yes, you're ready to produce in some way and be a part of the team in a real, authentic way, but you're also not an expert and it should be a time that you're learning about things like workplace culture along with whatever the function of that particular job is.

And at least when we work with employers, we try to explain that to them that, you know, you're, you're not going to be perfect. But that's where that conversation piece comes into play. Employers will really respect it if you, especially as an intern, feel comfortable going up to the mistake having this conversation. Hey, I was walking around, you know I'm the, I'm the Community Manager for this Facebook group for adopting dogs in West Michigan.

Can I, I'm looking for a dog by the way. That's, I've been on those a lot, so is it okay if when I'm getting my work done throughout the day, if I just peek in there real quick just to make sure if they're sending nasty comments or people breaking the rules, if I could just delete them.

And they might tell you, yeah, sure. You know, we have that time built into it. Somebody might say, don't worry about it. As long as you're doing your job, I don't care. And you might get some folks who say, no for any reason that's, that's against company policy. And then you would just go with whatever that the answer is you're given, but, but at least you ask them. They will respect you for asking.

Carlos Martinez (31:37):

We're doing just one or more than one today. I think. Just one we said, right?

Megan Riksen (31:41):

Yeah. Do you want to do the resume game?

Carlos Martinez (31:43):

No, we'll do that while we're doing the resume game.

Rachel Becklin (31:47):

Okay, good. I think we should do the resume.

Carlos Martinez (31:49):

You see folks, it's new to us too. So we're learning, we're learning as we go. All right. It's the Resume Game, but basically, it's two truths in a lie.

 

Megan Riksen (31:59):

Yes.

 

Carlos Martinez (32:00):

There's two truths and a lie I want, let's see, how can we do this? I guess anybody can answer. So I read the three statements. So, question number one is going to deal with Resume content. So statement one, I guess I should say not question. Your Resume is a comprehensive one-page document that includes your entire work history statement. Two resumes should target the specific position you're applying for. And statement three, experiences should be listed from most recent to least recent. And I can repeat that.

 

Rachel Becklin (32:42):

The two truths to truth and a lie statement,

 

Carlos Martinez (32:48):

One comprehensive one-page document includes your entire work history, experiences should be listed from most recent to least recent, most recent to least recent. And then, Resume should target the specific position you're applying to.

 

Megan Riksen (33:05):

We'll let our guests answer.

Rachel Becklin (33:07):

Well as we were talking earlier, I think we kind of hit on the fact that you want to know your audience when you're writing your Resume and be specific to the job posting that you're, that you're writing towards. So, I would probably say that the entire work history that one-page document would probably be the lie.

Because we do want to really target those positions that we're going for. I think the one page document is becoming a bit more of a myth. Employers seem to be more open to resumes that include good, relevant information that relates to the positions that they're looking, that the candidates are looking at. So if that takes you onto a second page I've been hearing from employers that that's okay. And so, I'm going with first statement number one. Yeah.

 

Megan Riksen (34:08):

Susan, do you agree?

Susan Proctor (34:09):

I could say

Depends [Laughter] we are both. It depends, right? Yeah. Generally, yes, I would agree with that. I think there are times where especially if you don't have a lengthy work history that you're going to want to add that all and I think chronological is probably the best way to do that. And probably the best way for most of our listeners, chronological reversed.

 

Carlos Martinez (34:33):

Reversed Chronological.

 

Susan Proctor 34: 34)

Yes, correct.  I think there are some times where, for more experienced individuals and especially for career changers, that there are other ways to format that, but we, I don't know that that's the time to get into that here. So I'm going to go with yes. Statement one was the lie, but I also will add a caveat.

Carlos Martinez (34:57):

It's how we started the conversation. None of this is universal, yes or no. Yeah. But, but yeah, you're and we, and we could dive into that a little bit. It's true. You know, sometimes, especially for those career changers, you're not going to list everything or you might not even list the current job you have first. You might list that on a different section of the email, like additional employment, but you have one that's very specific Engineering Experience or you might have you know, Healthcare Experience where you have jobs that were within the last two to four years. Even though the last two years you were actually in a different role. And so, you just list that as additional experience.

Just enough for them to know like, Hey, I wasn't just sitting around doing nothing, I was doing this. Or some of you might have stopped working altogether and you've gone and you went back to school.

So, your quote unquote professional role was that of a full-time student. And under your experience you might list being President of an organization with certain committees as well. Again, and these are things that are very case by case basis and we definitely work with you when you sign up for appointments on Handshake.

 

Rachel Becklin (36:00):

Right? And that's what's cool about our resume is it's personal to you as it best fits the positions that you're looking at. So your headings can be anything you want them to be. They don't have to say Work Experience, Education, Volunteer, right? They could be very unique and targeted to the areas that you're looking at. So maybe it's Leadership Experience, maybe it's Customer Service, Customer Service Experience, Hospitality Experience, right. It can be very specific to your experiences and what it is that you're looking for.

Carlos Martinez (36:33):

Okay. And we'll do another one. We'll have to do it quicker. So we're actually, we're talking a lot. This is good. This is a good problem to have.

 

Rachel Becklin (36:41):

Advisors like to chat.

 

 

 

Carlos Martinez (36:41):

Yeah. Advisorchat# . So this one is based on how resumes are used. So, statement one, a Cover Letter should always accompany a Resume even if not required. Statement two, it's better to send your resume directly to a Hiring Manager and bypass Human Resources. Statement three, while Resumes are important, networking is still the number one-way people find jobs. And I'll repeat that one more time. Statement. One, a Cover Letter should always accompany a Resume even when not required. Statement two, it's better to send a Resume directly to a Hiring Manager and bypass HR. And number three, while Resumes are important, networking is still the number one way that people find jobs.

 

Susan Proctor (37:31):

So, I'm going to go with number two being the lie. So, I still think you should send a Cover Letter. It's a great way to continue to tell your story. The committee or the HR professional or the recruiter may not look at it but it's still there and if they have additional questions they can refer to that. 100%. I agree that networking is still the way to get positions. I think 80 some percent, I don't have to stand in front of you. 83% of positions are never even posted.

So that is still the great way. I think you always want to, for number two, the lie, you always want to follow direction and how to apply for a position. So whatever it says to do is how you want to do that. That does not mean if you know who the hiring manager is or if you have a connection there that you can't also send your materials to that person.

But I would also at least let them know that you have followed the correct process and sent it through to the HR sources, right? So, one of the things that employers are looking for that we hear is the ability to follow direction, the ability to problem solve, right? And you know, a lot of times I hear back like, Oh, people see they have great written and oral communication and a great attention to detail.

And however, on their Resume there's a bunch of errors and they are, they aren't following the details that were presented to them. So I think that's a great way to show that you can do those things. As well as that you're going to follow processes. Someone wants someone that's an employee that can follow direction and follow processes.

Carlos Martinez (39:00):

So not to go off topic, but you brought up a really good point. Your Resume, your Cover Letter, your Reference page, any email you send the employers, these are all proof of work. They're writing samples there. Can you pay attention to detail? So I've seen, I've seen many resumes as I'm sure you all have that say attention to detail, you know, strong written skills. And then there are multiple spelling or formatting error. Standard document.

Rachel Becklin (39:22):

Yeah. And communicating the same thing, right? You'll double check your work.

 

Susan Proctor (39:26):

And in addition to that, there are a lot of legalities that are part of the hiring process, right? When we talked about international differences, you talked about that, right? So Civil Rights Act, if the employer might be a government contractor, there are certain rules and regulations that they need to follow to abide by that. And there's other caveats that are a part of that.

So, you need to go through the process and there are HR rules and process to make sure that they're protecting the organization so that the organization is looking equally and giving everyone accessibility to get in there. So, it's, it's very important to follow that process.

Again, it doesn't mean that you can't have additional processes. I mean, we hear that a lot even from folks that will come to a career fair or another networking event. You know, they wouldn't take my Resume here. What was the point of me coming to this? What does it mean that you didn't make an impression? And that they don't know your name. They might not be able to take your Resume there because all resumes have to go through that Applicant Tracking System or, or something along those lines so that they're staying within their, their legal parameters. But that doesn't mean that you didn't make some type of impact.

Rachel Becklin (40:29):

And it doesn't mean you can't follow up with that individual, get their business card

Susan Proctor (40:34):

More about the job or about the organization as well.

Carlos Martinez (40:37):

And just to go back on topic, Susan was correct.

Megan Riksen (40:40):

Yeah. Yay. Oh, Rachel and Susan killing it, that’s right.

Carlos Martinez (40:43):

Those of, and for those of you who are thinking Federal positions, a great website is USAjobs.gov and they have a nice little section on all about the things that the Federal Contractors and different departments require of you, where you will put things like maybe your Social Security number, you will include things that maybe are things like I'm a us citizen, which aren't required for a traditional civilian application. And just to start wrapping things up, one final question that I, that I had is I need a CV, right? How has the CV a curriculum, I've heard a call, curriculum vitae, curriculum vitality. I still don't know which one is right.

So, I just say CV, but, but basically, traditionally these are used for Graduate programs or positions that could be considered academic or where you know that there are folks with PhD that are applying you, you said that these are the kind of general areas where you will find CV. So what's a CV beyond what I just said? How, how are they different? What are some things you might want to include on there? And this is pretty much for anyone.

Megan Riksen (41:48):

Sure. So, I mean, curriculum veta itself is Latin for the course of my life, so I don't know. Okay. I don't know Latin but that's how I always say it. Right. You can, you can blame me for that. So that to me just is the first indicator that you can include a lot more on a CV and you probably should.

It's probably expected. I bet if you asked your faculty members to show their CV’s, I would be shocked if they were less than four pages. Right. So, they don't need to be as succinct and precise as a resume might.

 

Rachel Becklin (42:25):

I would say a lot of the same rules would apply as would apply to a Resume. So know your audience, know what's important to have towards the top. Because order is important. What we read first is what's going to stand out.

So, your Education, you know, what is it that that Grad Program is looking for? So having that in mind as you're writing it, keeping it error free, reviewing it, making sure the format is consistent I think is all still very relevant for a CV. But you can definitely be more inclusive of presentations. You've done research, you've been a part of professional development.

 

Carlos Martinez (43:04)

Classes you've taught.

Susan Proctor (43:09):

It's, it's, it's common in any research based or scientific based type of type of physicians as well. So, they're gonna want to see the type of research that you've accomplished if you've been published, what peer reviewed documents have been out there and what others are saying about you. With many faculty and academics, I know what is the course of your life. They kind of keep adding to that all along the way. So, some of them can get long, but I agree, Rachel, that keeping it relevant and keeping it current and timely to what you're doing because just because you had a publication in 1985 about something does not mean that that research is even accurate any longer.

Carlos Martinez (43:48):

And I worked with some, we actually had that conversation. I worked with someone who was a Jose university professor who were redoing their CV and there was a conversation on the person didn't agree with their own research from 20 plus years ago because they felt it was outdated but they thought that they were required to include it on the next day.

You're not required, you've evolved as a scholar and so your, your CV can reflect that it's okay. Right. Even if some of your more recent work contradicts your older one. So we know the field is accepted but he, this person believed that at all had to be on the CV since that's kind of how they were. They were trained coming out of graduate school and if you, when I was helping this person, I was going around different websites and different universities and I was trying to get an idea of what people are recommending from CV’s.

 I needed to update myself for the type of positions they were applying to, and there are some really good guides. If you want any of them, just shoot me an email. martyCar@gvsu.edu and I can, and I can send you some of these really cool guys who just come into the Career Center and just ask to get Carlos information

Susan Proctor (44:59):

And not to pick on academics or scholars or anything. I think this applies to everything sometimes and we know a resume or any of your documents is a way to sort of brag about yourself, which can feel uncomfortable, but sometimes we get caught up in that which is like everything I've done is so important and I want to list that all and not that it's not important, but again you have that answer key or that open book test in front of you. You have the qualifications of the job, what is the most important. Then sometimes you have to step back and have someone else look at your materials to say, you know, I'll highlight a job description and say what's coming up here often and also just like on a resume, what's at the top. Because primarily an employer is going to put the most important things at the very top.

And so, if you're looking way at the bottom, and those are the skills that you have, that's probably not the most important things to draw attention to. So what can I take off of my research regardless of where it's at or what can they take off of there to be concise and to tell my story in a succinct way. And that's very difficult because we know we all feel like the work that we've done is important and should be valued.

But how do we, we can tell that story in our interview and there are other ways to have that. We can link out to a LinkedIn profile that has more information or to a portfolio or a venue as you talked about, where you can kind of showcase some of that more, but you do want to get through at least that first process.

So, I think being concise and telling your story as it matches to the answer key is, is the one thing that I would leave this podcast saying. And what I hear from employers all the time.

Carlos Martinez (46:26):

Okay. And speaking of leaving these podcasts, I think, think we're at a really good spot right now. I think this is a really solid introduction of Resumes but remember, it's, this isn't everything. There are so many individual specific things that can vary based on what we've said that you want to say something else?

Megan Riksen  (46:42):

No, just there are plenty of resources at Grand Valley. Of course, in the Career Center, you're welcome to come into our Career Lab at any point. Monday through Friday, both in 200 student services as well as downtown in 101BDevos. Make an appointment in Handshake with the Advisor that works with your major. And then our Writing Center also can help with some of the language and things like that. So, use your resources.

 

Rachel Becklin (47:12):

Our website also has our entire reference guide. So, if you're, you know, it's 2:00 a.m. and you don't know what else to do when you're ready to crank out a solid Resume, that could be a good place to get started. It goes through and it talks about how do you craft these resume statements? How can I make a concise statement that still really reflects skills and experiences that I've had.

So, it has a lot of great info to get you started. So, when you do step into the Career Lab, you can have a really good and meaningful interaction there that can really help move that Resume forward.

 

Susan Proctor (46:43):

Any tips on how to quantify? I can't believe I didn't say that. Quantifying what you've done. So, I think quantifying and not just making a Statement, Hey, I did this but this is what I did and this is how I impacted the organization that I work for and the success that I had.

Carlos Martinez (47:59):

Usually numbers are key. Using numbers. A great way to tell the difference between someone who's solid, you got some experience and someone who's applying to those high, high competitive positions there. They're listing a lot of numbers, a lot of results based statements. We call them Accomplishment Statements in our office. And we can definitely train you on how to do this one on one when you come in or added to the Career Lab or to a one on one Appointment.

Rachel Becklin (48:25):

Yeah, bring your laptop right to the Career Lab and we can sit with you and kind of walk you through.

Carlos Martinez (48:30):

All right. Thank you all so much. It's been a pleasure having you as guests, but also it's been a pleasure for all of you to listen to us. Take care and we'll see you next month.