Megan Riksen:

Hello and welcome to the Work Like a Laker podcast. I'm Megan Riksen, and today we are talking about working for the state of Michigan. And to help us with this topic, I am joined by Cindy Whittum, who is from the Michigan Department of Environment, great Lakes and Energy, which we'll be referring to as EGLE. Yes. So Cindy, welcome to the podcast. Thank

Cindy Whittum:

You so much for having me. I'm very excited to be here.

Megan Riksen:

We are excited to have you. Because working for the state can be a little bit of a mystery. It is, right? It is. Yeah. It's can be somewhat of an unwieldy process. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So we wanna kind of chat through all of that with you. Great. so your role is recruitment and internship specialist. Correct. So why don't you just kind of kick us off, tell us a little bit about your role and what you do for the state of Michigan to Yeah. Give us some information.

Cindy Whittum:

Perfect. Great. Well, thank you for having me. I'm very excited to be here because I do think that there are a lot of mysteries out there that, that, or steps of the process that people don't understand because we're not very clear Sure. To the general public about what we expect sort of explaining things. But my role, I was hired at EGLE about a little over a year ago. Okay. They've never had a dedicated recruiter before.

Megan Riksen:

Oh, wow.

New Speaker:

And that is something that departments within the state are starting to realize that it is not a one size fits all recruitment need. Mm. So departments are starting to identify their own re recruiting staff. Great. And my background actually is I was a career coach for many years, so career coaching and workforce development are my two areas of expertise. So I was brought on board to create not only a recruitment structure and to improve our recruitment outcomes, but also to restructure our internship program, which I'm working on right now. Okay. Yeah.

Megan Riksen:

Perfect. Awesome. So you're, you're the perfect guest for us today. Oh, thank you, <laugh>. That's great. So yeah, we do hear from students and learners often that applying for the job for any job Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> with the state of Michigan can be a little challenging, sometimes confusing. So yeah, let's, let's get into it and, and talk a little bit more about how to navigate that process.

Cindy Whittum:

Awesome. so before we do that, I would like to do just sort of a short little quiz, if you don't mind.

Megan Riksen:

Let's do it. Love a quiz. Excellent. Love a quiz. Excellent.

Cindy Whittum:

Okay. So true or false, the state of Michigan is consistently one of the largest employers in this state,

Megan Riksen:

I'm gonna say. Yes. It feels like there's a lot of departments and people.

Cindy Whittum:

There is. There is. And that is true. There are over, almost over half a million. Oh

Megan Riksen:

My gosh.

Cindy Whittum:

So 581,000 employees across the entire footprint of the state. Upper peninsula, lower peninsula, but state of Michigan employees. Wow.

Megan Riksen:

And the population of Michigan. What is that? I don't even know. I don't wanna, yeah, sorry. You don't have to know that, but that seems like a pretty high percentage. It is.

Cindy Whittum:

We are one of, we are probably the biggest employer in the state. Amazing.

Megan Riksen:

Yeah. Yeah.

Cindy Whittum:

Great. Absolutely. So the next one is how many state departments are within the state of Michigan?

Megan Riksen:

Hmm. I don't know. I'm gonna guess 30.

Cindy Whittum:

There's 20. Okay. Yeah. There are 20 different state departments that employ people of all majors. Okay. All academic disciplines and all types of jobs. Awesome. so from high school diploma all the way up through master's level PhD. Oh, great. Yeah. So it just depends on the department.

Megan Riksen:

Yeah. Very good.

Cindy Whittum:

Next one, true or false? All state jobs are located in Lansing.

Megan Riksen:

I think that's gotta be false.

Cindy Whittum:

It is false. Okay. Yeah. There are district offices for all departments all over the state of Michigan. And I wanna say probably Michigan Department of Transportation. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> probably is the one that has the biggest footprint. Sure. And I could be wrong, so State of Michigan workers listening, don't quote me on that <laugh>.

Cindy Whittum:

But we do have them all over the state. Great. and then the last one, how many active job postings does the state of Michigan have at any given time? Hmm.

Megan Riksen:

200,

Cindy Whittum:

Over 500. Woo. Well, and right now, and it fluctuates. Okay. Because last night at four 30, I did a quick search. Yes. and we had 591 total active jobs. And then this morning it's 7 45. I checked again and we had 578 Okay. Jobs. So it stays at about an average, about 500, a little over 500 jobs. Yeah. That

Megan Riksen:

Is like, think about the opportunity there.

Cindy Whittum:

Ton of opportunity.

Megan Riksen:

That's amazing.

Cindy Whittum:

Ton of opportunity. Amazing. Yeah.

Megan Riksen:

So cool. Great. Awesome. Okay. So with so many of those openings and opportunities, we, why do you think this feels so hard to apply to?

Cindy Whittum:

We're different Yeah. Than the private sector. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So state of Michigan, all of our processes are run by civil service. And civil services' role is to make sure that it's an even playing field across the board. So there's a lot of steps to our processes. We also have to put all of our roles underneath approved civil service, job specification titles. So I think that's where a lot of the confusion comes from. People don't really know where to look or know what to look at. Yeah. So I think that makes it confusing. The other thing that makes it so hard is we still got, on average, and I'm gonna talk about one of our, our entry level roles in Eagle, which is an environmental quality analyst. And that covers a lot of real estate at Eagle, but it's where a lot of students start out. Okay. Or new grads start out and we get between 70, 80, sometimes a hundred over a hundred applicants for each posting.

Megan Riksen:

Oh my goodness. Yeah.

Cindy Whittum:

So it can be overwhelming. It can be overwhelming. And you just have to be persistent and continue to try to apply. That's the biggest thing. Okay. and because of our size, sometimes we aren't able to communicate and follow up with applicants like maybe a small company can.

Megan Riksen:

Sure, sure. Yeah. Makes sense. Yeah. Okay. So I think that that's a good tip. Yeah. If you, at first you don't succeed, try Yeah. And try again. Yeah. And that doesn't mean you were a bad candidate, right? No. For a position. Oh my gosh.

Cindy Whittum:

No, no. And you wanna make sure that you're making yourself relevant. And we might get into this a little bit later, but as a job seeker, whether you're looking at a private sector Yep. Company or public sector, which government is public sector, you need to do the heavy lifting for the person that's reading your materials. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And another key point that I want people to understand is we don't use keyword software. So many people think we do. You don't. We don't. And as of right now, we don't use any type of ai, nothing. It is human beings

Megan Riksen:

Human from the first read of that resume, from the first read. Woo. Okay.

Cindy Whittum:

From the first read,

Megan Riksen:

Which I think is encouraging.

Cindy Whittum:

It is encouraging. Yeah. But I think it's important for people to know then if it's people that's looking at your application Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, you need to make it relevant. You need to make your, your resume, your application materials relevant for the job that you are applying for. Yeah.

Megan Riksen:

So critical. It's really, really for anything. But it sounds like if Yeah, if every position's getting that many applicants, yes. You're really gonna stand out a lot more if you're tailoring your materials.

Cindy Whittum:

Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah.

Megan Riksen:

Awesome. Yeah. Good deal. Okay. So for those who haven't ever explored jobs with the state Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, can you walk us through what these jobs and this process looks like? Yeah. That might be different from the private sector

Cindy Whittum:

And, and touched on it a little bit. Job title, it's very, very difficult to understand what the role is just from a job title. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, and I'm gonna use for Eagle every and every department is a little bit different, but for Eagle, like I had mentioned, we have a job title called Environmental Quality Analyst. Okay. EQA, which that is where a lot of degrees fall under. It, it's a great opportunity for students that are looking to get into environmental work as long as they have the hard sciences. And, and we're a little bit different because there's very few jobs that we have that do not require a bachelor's degree. Okay. And in, in the hard sciences, what I tell people is the first place a job seeker should go is to the questions. There are questions listed that you are going to have to answer in the application. Oh. Those questions are picked by the hiring manager most often.

Megan Riksen:

So they, they vary from position to position.

Cindy Whittum:

Oh. You and I could be an environmental quality analyst sitting right next to each other and our jobs could look very different. Oh, wow. Okay. So again, it's a civil service job classification that we put a lot of roles under, and we also sometimes list the working title, which will give you a better idea of what Oh, okay. The job is, sure, not always,

Megan Riksen:

But is that like you have to click into the posting to see that? Or will that be like just in the top search results?

Cindy Whittum:

We're trying to get better about putting it right there on the posting. Okay. Right next to Environmental quality analyst in the working title. Sure. But every job posting has a position description attached to it. Okay. If you open up that position description, you'll be able to see on page one of that position description, the working title. Okay. If there is one. Got it. But those questions Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, if you read through those questions, that is going to give you a really good indication of what exactly is this hiring manager looking for. Okay. If you can't answer in the affirmative to at least, I would say at least 95% of those questions don't apply.

Megan Riksen:

Okay. Okay. That's great. Don't apply. That's great

Cindy Whittum:

Advice. Save your time. Sure. Save your time, save your energy, and then focus on something else. Perfect. The other thing that I think is confusing for people is, or frustrating is our job postings maybe are out there for a couple weeks. Yeah. So if you don't see anything you want right now, I, I tell people Look every week to see what's out there. Okay.

Megan Riksen:

Okay.

Cindy Whittum:

That's another tip. Don't give up. Don't think that there's nothing out there for you, because we don't have a particular time of the year that we do heavy recruiting. We don't have a particular day of the week that we post a lot of jobs. It just depends on what they, when they make it through the approval process Okay. And get the okay to get posted. So

Megan Riksen:

It's just constantly rolling. Yeah. Keep checking. Yep. Yep. That's great. Because I think in other industries that's very different. It is. There is a recruiting season. Yes. There is, you know, fall especially Yes. Super heavy recruiting season for many, many industries. Yeah. But I think that's kind of a, a real opportunity then it's for students because Yeah. If you didn't find something in the fall that was right for you. Right. Hey, guess what? Next week, try again.

Cindy Whittum:

<Laugh> the individuals that I work with, I coach them to Yeah. Bookmark filter by EGLE. Okay. Bookmark that and then check it once a week. Okay. Because whenever something is posted brand new for the first week that it's out there, it will have a green flag on it that says new. Oh, that's helpful. So if you're checking once a week Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, you can quickly identify what are the new jobs haven't

Megan Riksen:

Looked at. Oh, that's helpful. So you're not looking at all the same ones again. Yeah. That were already in there the previous week. Okay. Yeah. Okay. That's great. And what website are we actually talking about?

Cindy Whittum:

We're talking, talking about the state of Michigan job board. Okay. And if you just go to State of Michigan jobs Yep. Just Google that. Yep. It will take you right to the state of Michigan job board Okay. Specific to us. Perfect. I, I strongly recommend that if you are interested, go to that website because we have such a short turnaround time on some of our jobs. Mm-Hmm mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> if you're looking at Indeed or if you're looking at those type of places that pull jobs. Yep. Many times our jobs have expired. By the time you would get to it through a third party. Yes. Okay. And we do post on handshake as well.

Megan Riksen:

Okay. Great. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. That's perfect. And yeah, just in terms of like searching for positions, do you recommend using filters on the site? Do you recommend first doing research on which department you want to be in? Like do you have any advice on that?

Cindy Whittum:

I, you know, I do, and we do have job alerts. You could set job alerts on the website. And, and those, those are effective. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> especially, but for people that are very interested in a particular department, yeah. I would almost say research the departments. Okay. And then filter just by the department alone, because remember, we use state of Michigan civil service jobs specifications. So it might not get you, it might not get you the results you want. If you're using that, that that job alert, I, I tell people just bookmark Eagle. Okay. Once a week, check it, look at the new ones. Every, all the

Megan Riksen:

New ones. Yes.

Cindy Whittum:

Yes. Okay. Especially environmental quality analysts. That's the one, I mean, we do have engineer geologists. Those are pretty clear, but it's the environmental quality analysts, which I think there's the most opportunity.

Megan Riksen:

Okay. And then there are levels as well. Yes. Yes. <Laugh>, can you talk about that? I feel like that is one of the most confusing pieces

Cindy Whittum:

Of working

Megan Riksen:

For government. Yes,

Cindy Whittum:

It is. So again, that is something that we, we are required to put those on all job postings. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, which is great. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. But usually if it's below a nine we have six, seven might even go lower than that. But once you hit nine, a, a bachelor's degree is required. Okay. It's more of a, a, an education requirement. Got it. Or a job classification requirement. So nine through 11 would be that entry level to maybe one to two years of experience. So we lump them together. Okay. Once you get above that, a 12 to a 13 would be more like three years of experience, four years of experience. Sure. Maybe five years. Sure. And then when you get above 13 to like 14 and 15, then you're taking on management roles.

Megan Riksen:

Oh, okay.

Cindy Whittum:

Yeah. So that's a good way, that's a good way to figure it out.

Megan Riksen:

So, you know, if you're just graduating... Right. You're not in the 15 range.

Cindy Whittum:

No. Unfortunately, yeah. If you're just graduating, you are gonna come in at a 9. Cool. Okay. Yeah, you are. Okay. and some of our job postings will say, you know, looking for experience and we will clarify post education or post-degree experience. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> your professional level of experience.

Megan Riksen:

Got it. Yeah. When it, when it is bachelor's required, do you suggest that students apply before they graduate? Or do they need to be actually like, graduated in order to apply? Yeah,

Cindy Whittum:

That's a very good question because I get that a lot, especially towards graduation. Yeah. for Eagle, we encourage students to start looking and applying three months out Okay. From graduation. Okay. and there is a transcript requirement when you apply to the state. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> we want, and we call it an official transcript, but academic official transcript in our official transcript. Two, I mean, two totally different things. Okay. when you apply, and this is the, one of the biggest mistakes students make is, well, I don't have my official transcript yet, so I'm just not gonna attach anything Mm. That will get you kicked out. That is one of the things, if you look at the application, it'll say you must attach a resume, cover letter and transcript. Attach whatever you have access to. Sure. Because if you get hired, it will be hired with the understanding. It'll be a contingent offer that you won't be able to start until you complete your degree and you will provide us that official transcript. Yep. But three months out is usually the role for Eagle. Okay. To start applying for those roles.

Megan Riksen:

Okay. That's great. Do you find that's pretty common across departments? I know you said said,

Cindy Whittum:

I think it, everything is different, but I think it is. Yeah. and it takes a while to even get through the process. So it, there's good chances you'll be graduated by the time the job offer comes through anyway. Yes. it's just, you know, the, the nature of the beast, it takes us a while to get through the process.

Megan Riksen:

Yep. Makes sense. We have that here in higher ed too. Oh yeah. It takes a while. It does.

Cindy Whittum:

It does. There's a lot, lot

Megan Riksen:

Of things to do.

Cindy Whittum:

Yeah. Good things come to those who wait, I guess

Megan Riksen:

<Laugh>. Yeah. There you go. Awesome. so what are some things that students can do to help themselves move forward in the application and hiring process?

Cindy Whittum:

Perfect. and I mentioned it earlier, make yourself relevant. Make yourself, make your skills and your experience relevant to the job that you're applying for. I had internships posted this last summer, and I had 16 of them posted, and in two different places, I, I stated resume, cover, letter and transcript. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And I would say probably about a third of the students got eliminated immediately because they did not attach those documents. Oh my gosh. Yes. So just make sure you're following the rules. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> also read the position description. Position description in my view is the roadmap. Okay. It is the roadmap to you understanding what that role is going to be. So read through that and use that to have your, your mind around what they're looking for, what the job is going to be, and then answer the questions and fill out the experience with that in mind.

Cindy Whittum:

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So you're really connecting the dots. Okay. For the hiring manager, the other thing that I think is really important for college students to understand is with us and with our EQA roles, we have two different education requirements listed. One will be that bachelor's degree that is very specific for a certain area of study. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And we'll say we want a bachelor's degree in this, this, this or this. We will almost always on EQA say, or a bachelor's degree in any discipline as long as you have 30 credit hours or 45 term hours in this. And we will list out a mix of specialties. Oh,

Megan Riksen:

Okay. Or list,

Cindy Whittum:

List of focus. Yep. If you are applying and you fall under that second category. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, I have been recommending to students that underneath your education you add, possess 30 credit hours in this.

Megan Riksen:

Okay. That's a great tip. Yeah.

Cindy Whittum:

We, we do have the transcript attached, but again, think about making life easier for the person that's reading. Oh yeah. Instead of saying, well, they can see my transcript, which I've had a couple students say to me, Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, uhhuh, <affirmative>, it's gonna be right there on your resume. Right. So, so take that extra time to do that. Cool. That is probably one of the best tips that I could give to a college student. Great. Yeah. Make it easy

Megan Riksen:

And Yeah. What about in terms of how they share about their experience that they've had?

Cindy Whittum:

Any experience is relevant experience. Yeah. Okay. Great. And we've got two different levels of experience. So the hiring manager is gonna look at any experience they have in college. Okay. Yep. There that's gonna be relevant. So that's really the most important. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> if you've had an internship. Yep. If you've worked on a project, if there's something that relates directly to the position you're applying for, get that on the resume. Get it in there, get that in the application. Where, and, and I've had some people say, well, it, it doesn't count towards like the, the offer that is made. So there's two different things here. So will count to consider you qualified for the job in the, in the eyes of the hiring manager. What, what experience does not count for prior to graduation would be when civil service classifies you. Mm. Does that make sense? I think so. So, yeah. So they don't necessarily count it towards experience to move you up to a 10 or 11 level. Sure. Okay. So you would come in at a nine level. I hope I made

Megan Riksen:

That clear. Yeah. That that does make sense. Yeah.

Cindy Whittum:

But for a hiring manager. Yeah. Oh, very important. They wanna know what you did. So

Megan Riksen:

To get the job Yes. You better be tailoring Oh the heck outta this resume. Absolutely. Sharing any relevant experience, whether it's a student org Yep. Working on campus. Yep. Summer jobs, anything. Anything. But that doesn't necessarily qualify you to move up Right. In terms of the state level. There you go. 9, 10, 11. Okay. Perfect. Okay.

Cindy Whittum:

That's perfect. I got it. Yes. Okay. You paraphrased beautifully.

Megan Riksen:

Great. Beautiful <laugh>. Yeah. That always is so confusing. It is confusing. I mean, the federal government's the same way. You're like, what do I, what

Cindy Whittum:

It, it's, it's very

Megan Riksen:

Confusing,

Cindy Whittum:

But the hiring managers do want to see, they wanna see that connection. You know, they wanna see that passion and that drive for environmental protection. 'cause That's what we do. Yeah.

Megan Riksen:

Yeah.

Cindy Whittum:

That is what we do. It's all about protecting Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> Michigan's natural resources and if you've done anything Mm-Hmm.

Megan Riksen:

<Affirmative>,

Cindy Whittum:

Anything in that realm, they're gonna be interested in talking. They're

Megan Riksen:

Want that Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. And I would say the cover letter probably is a great place to share some of those actual stories.

Cindy Whittum:

It is.

Megan Riksen:

When I was a part of this student org, we did x, y, Z out in the community.

Cindy Whittum:

Yep. And really sharing that. I'll tell you our hiring managers look at those. Okay. And I, and I know there's a school of thought out there amongst, you know, career, professional career coaches that cover letters are, they're, they're not necessary. They're a waste of time. Yeah. They're a joke. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. They are part of the civil service screening process for one. So you have to include it, but I will tell you, every time I talk to a hiring manager, they read those cover letters. Okay, great. And they make their decision a lot of who they're gonna bring in, especially if they've got a large pool of applicants, they're gonna use that cover letter to narrow down who they wanna bring in. For sure. An interview. Mm-Hmm.

Megan Riksen:

<Affirmative>. Okay. Great. Good to know. Yeah. yeah. So you mentioned internships. Can you talk a little bit more about the internship process? Yeah. Is that the same? Is it different?

Cindy Whittum:

It is. It's different. Okay. and we're still a work in progress, and I'm gonna be very transparent. Unfortunately, the state of Michigan does not pay right now. Sure. but it's something I'm working on and I'm working very di diligently since the day I started. Thank you. So because I do understand it's an, an equitable practice. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. But we're still moving forward with developing, so it's just summer we're, we're focusing just on summer. Okay. Okay. Because the student primarily that we are trying to attract has a very rigorous program. A lot of them don't wanna do internships during the school year. But I will be posting those for summer 2025. I'm hoping to get those posted by December, late December, early January. Okay. ideally late December with a deadline around the second week of February Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> for that following summer.

Cindy Whittum:

So we try to do it as early as possible, but my divisions will give, will provide me with projects. These are real life projects. Awesome. Yep. Right now for this group that just started Monday, our summer cohort just started Monday. We have students that are going out and doing sampling in, in our drinking water. I think it's drinking water. We have students that are working on PFAS. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. We have students that there's just a whole mix. Some that are doing really detailed research. Nice. some that are doing data. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> database. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> GIS work. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So cool. A huge mix. Yeah. I was really thrilled with the mix we got this year.

Megan Riksen:

And those are located throughout the state? Throughout

Cindy Whittum:

The state. Cool. A lot of them are based out of Lansing, but a majority, I would say over half of our internships are fully remote.

Megan Riksen:

Cool. Yeah. So

Cindy Whittum:

Students can do them from home, especially the research based ones.

Megan Riksen:

Sure. Yeah. That makes sense. Yeah. Awesome. Yeah. Okay. So my last question is just how should a student think about getting connected to a person beyond just a, applying through the website? Right. Are there ways that students can meet with you or get to know other recruiters or hiring managers through the state? Kind of what would a networking pre-application look like?

Cindy Whittum:

I would say the best thing to do is LinkedIn. Okay. I think almost all of the recruiters at the state are, are members of LinkedIn. Great. And utilize that. Okay. And I'm on LinkedIn, you know, especially for students that are environmental engineering or even engineering in general feel free to reach out to me. Okay. Any environmental sciences, environmental sustainability biology, chemistry, they can reach out to me directly and I am on LinkedIn. Okay. And I would love to connect with students. Perfect. if you go to each department's website and you go to their career section Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, they, I can't speak for all of them, but I do believe that the recruiter's information is available. Okay. My information is available right front and center. Okay. When you go to our career page at Eagle. Okay. so that would be the best way just to reach out.

Cindy Whittum:

Great. Great. and then career fairs? Yeah. I mean, we do attend career fairs. Awesome. so just chat with them. And we are a tight network of recruiters, so Mm-Hmm. If there is a department that is not, say, at the next Grand Valley career fair, if there's a department that's not there, a lot of us will recruit for other departments. If we're able to be there, we'll help help other departments out. So if, if, for example, I'm not at the next career fair, you wanna connect with me, just go up to any State department and say, can you get my resume to Cindy? Or can you get me connected to Cindy? Perfect. Okay. Excellent. And they'd be more than happy to do that.

Megan Riksen:

Okay. Perfect. Yeah. Yes, our, our career fair always in October, so Yep.

Cindy Whittum:

Great opportunity. Definitely

Megan Riksen:

Go and talk to some people there as well.

Cindy Whittum:

Absolutely.

Megan Riksen:

Awesome. Yeah. Okay. Well I think that is all the questions Okay. I have for you. Any last tips, advice, anything else to share?

Cindy Whittum:

You know, two things, don't give up. Yep. You know, it is because it is very competitive. Don't give up. And, and I think you even mentioned it too. If you don't get chosen, don't think that it's because you're not a fit for the state or a fit for Eagle. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. It, it's competition. So don't give up and don't start internalizing that rejection, which I know is very hard to do. Totally. don't internalize it that you are not good enough to work for us. Okay. And if you have any questions, seriously, please feel free to reach out to me. Awesome.

Megan Riksen:

Great. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for being here today. Oh, thank

Cindy Whittum:

You. This was wonderful. I do appreciate the time. 

Megan Riksen:

You are so welcome. All right, well thank you everyone for listening, and we hope you tune into a future episode soon.