Megan Riksen:

Hello, and welcome to the work like a Laker podcast. I'm your host, Megan Riksen, and today I am joined by my co-host, Grace Joaquin.

Grace Joaquin:

Hi everyone.

Megan Riksen:

Hello. And today we have a very special guest joining us. Caitlin Horrocks is a professor here at GVSU in writing, and she is also here to talk about becoming a published author. Caitlin has written two story collections, life among the Terranauts, and This is Not Your City, as well as a novel, the Vexations, which the Wall Street Journal named as one of the 10 best books of 2019. So, hi Caitlin, thanks so much for joining us today.

Caitlin Horrocks:

Thanks so much for having me. We're really

Megan Riksen:

Excited to talk to you. Yes. As you're going to hear over and over, Grace and I love reading.

Grace Joaquin:

Yes. And we're very geeked out about this episode. Yes. <laugh>. And I'm extra excited because I think I mentioned this in the email, but I actually took your class when I was a student here. And I wanna say, you mentioned it was like one of your first years, second years of teaching, and you were wonderful. It was such a fun class. It was, it was a gen ed and it was, I don't remember the exact name, but it was like introduction to creative writing or something like that. And I loved it. And so we thought you might wanna first just start by describing or letting us know a few of the classes you teach, so that if any student listening wants to take some of your classes, they know what to look for.

Caitlin Horrocks:

Absolutely. So it would've been Writing 219. Okay. WRT 219, Intro to Creative Writing. I, and it is, I, it's a class. We, we try to make fun. Uh, it fulfills the arts requirement, um, for general education. I, and it's a a mixed genre class, so you're experimenting with writing fiction, poetry, creative nonfiction, um, just sort of really, it's a really like generative creative class. Um, just sort of trying out different things, techniques, ideas, um, uh, working with different ways to get ideas and, and brainstorm and bounce ideas off each other, um, and just, uh, really like fun, creative space. So highly recommend to anyone. Yeah. Uh, once you've taken two 19. Um, that's the prereq to a lot of the other courses I teach. I teach, um, 300 and 400 level classes in fiction and creative nonfiction. Uh, and then we also, in the writing department, I also teach editing and publishing courses. Mm. Uh, and we all, uh, we offer a lot of other courses, um, in different types of creative writing and also, um, you know, business technical, professional writing.

Grace Joaquin:

Well, I can personally recommend Caitlin as an instructor and also now as an author. Megan and I read a couple of your books. Megan, do you wanna share what you read? Yeah.

Megan Riksen:

I read your most recent work Life Among the Terranauts. And I have to say I loved it. Um, I typically don't read short story collections, but this pushed me outta my comfort zone. And I really, really liked the format and I thought they were well written and it was just, yeah, kind of super fun. I have a bunch of different stories, um, with a bunch of different characters to read about.

Grace Joaquin:

And I, I was saying, I read This Is Not Your City, which is also a short story collection. And was it your first published book? I believe, yes. And I was saying the same thing to Megan, where I don't, I also don't often read short stories because I think for me, I'm always worried that it's too short, I won't get pulled into it, you know, since it's so short. But with yours, I feel like immediately each story could have been a full length novel and I really just like got pulled into the characters. Um, and they're very, the stories were all very layered and like, you feel so many emotions. And, and so what inspired you to start your journey as an author?

Caitlin Horrocks:

I, first, I just wanna say how thrilled I am that we're talking about, like short stories. Yay. <laugh> and I, and, uh, I think, you know, most fiction readers gravitate more towards novels. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. I mean, that's what we grow up with. Mm-hmm. And there is just something sort of so deliciously immersive, of course, about a great, wonderful big novel. Um, but I, I love short stories as a writer and as a reader. Yeah. Um, and it's always like really special for me, um, for a reader who maybe doesn't usually read short stories, um, to, to read mine and, uh, yeah. Find them satisfying, find them rewarding. Yeah. Um, 'cause yeah, I'll acknowledge, I, sometimes I think the worry or the frustration with the form is that you do just get these sort of short glimpses mm-hmm <affirmative>. Then you get like booted out at the end mm-hmm <affirmative>. Uh, but, um, I, I, yeah, I find them really enjoyable and and rewarding.

Grace Joaquin:

And it looks like you've had, so you have your two short story collections, but you also have a, a lot of stories that are published elsewhere as well.

Caitlin Horrocks:

So, so yeah, sort of, I guess thinking about that, you know, author, you know, journey, you know, towards becoming an author, um, I definitely, as a kid, I was just a huge reader, like very classic bookworm. And I, I think that the two things that I was finding, um, that were most important to me about the books I was reading as a kid, uh, was that sense of escape mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, you know, whether it was fantasy or more realist fiction, just entering into another life Yeah. In another world. Um, and, and having those moments of recognition, whether or not the character was like, really, you know, like me in, in obvious ways mm-hmm <affirmative>. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. I, and, and I just, you know, I, I loved that and it would've been a dream to like be the person creating those experiences. Um, but it just never seemed at all realistic to me.

Caitlin Horrocks:

Like, I, you know, if you know the saying, you know, oh, what do you wanna be when you grow up? Yeah. I mean, to me, like saying a writer would've been like saying like, a mermaid <laugh>. Right. <laugh>, um, like, or, or I mean like ballerina <laugh>. Right. I, you know, just, just something that was either totally implausible or like, you know, not really, you know, gonna happen for 99.9% of the people out there. Um, but I, but I just didn't stop writing. Um, I, I still knew that I loved it. I still knew that I cared about it, so I would do it in class. I would, you know, sign up for a class if it was available. If there was like a creative option for an assignment, I, I would take it. Um, and I just didn't quit. I, and I, you know, kept writing through through college afterwards, ended up going to graduate school for writing, which is not, um, there is no one, um, credential path mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Caitlin Horrocks:

Or educational path that a writer needs. I mean, there's an infinite number of ways to, to be a writer. Um, for me, grad school was, was helpful. Uh, and one of the ways in which it was helpful, I mean, it was helpful in terms of what I was doing in the classroom, but also helpful in just being surrounded by people who just also hadn't stopped <laugh>. Yeah. Um, who, who were like, you know, like, okay, you know, I, I care about this, so let's, let's own the fact I care about it and, and try and get better and, and try and just sort of commit to it and see where it goes. Very cool. Um, and that was kind of finally the moment where I was like, alright, you know, stop, stop pretending that this is purely a hobby you're gonna like, set

Grace Joaquin:

I like what you said about like, just fully committing to it. I think there, or, and admitting to yourself that this is like the path that you're on. 'cause I'm sure that's probably a, something that a lot of writers have to sort of contend with is getting over that hurdle of, um, of that

Megan Riksen:

Like, I can try this. Yeah. Maybe I'll fail, but I can try. Yeah.

Caitlin Horrocks:

Yeah. And I, and I think that relationship with like, trying and failure, I, I think I realized that I was waiting a really long time for permission. Mm-hmm. Like, I, I thought that the only way that I would get to call myself a writer is if somebody like, sort of tapped me on the shoulder and was like, you know, you're good. You're good enough, Uhhuh <affirmative>. Like, you're, you're not gonna fail. Like, this is what you should be doing. Right. Um, and there there's no, I mean, that's probably not gonna happen. <laugh> uh, there's, there's nobody out there who's, who's gonna do that for you partly. 'cause you will fail at some point. Yeah. I, and, and partly 'cause just, you need to be the person to give yourself permission.

Megan Riksen:

I love that. That's great. So can you talk us through a little bit of the process of getting your first book published? What that looked like?

Caitlin Horrocks:

Sure. So I, my first book was even more of a rollercoaster than the normal publication process and, and kind of weird in certain ways. So I'll, I'll talk about that. But then I, it was a more typical process for the next two books mm-hmm <affirmative>. And I can briefly talk about that. Great. Um, I, uh, was finishing grad school with a sort of pile of short stories. I, I was working on a novel, but, um, had what I, what I felt was a, a decent collection of, of short stories, um, because there tend to be fewer readers for short stories. Um, a lot of story collections aren't published by like, the big publishing houses. They're published by smaller places. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, and, uh, you know, good and bad of that. Um, you know, the, there isn't as much money there, there isn't as much reach, there isn't as much, uh, publicity generally for those books.

Caitlin Horrocks:

But they are easier to approach those publishers. Um, they generally, you don't need an agent, you just like send the manuscript in, um, to the, the press during like an open submission period or during a contest. Um, so I started sending the manuscript out to, to sort of different, um, presses and contests, uh, and then also publishing stories in, um, magazines. There's this whole like, ecosystem, uh, of online and print magazines that publish fiction, poetry, nonfiction, art, photography. Um, and, uh, while I was sending out the collection, an agent saw one of those stories that I had published, um, and reached out to me and asked like, what, what are you working on? Uh, what else do you have? And I said, well, I have a, this collection of stories. And she's like, Uhhuh, <laugh>. And then I said, I'm also working on a novel.

Caitlin Horrocks:

And then she's like, ah, okay. <laugh>. Ooh, I like you now. <laugh>. Ah, yeah. So I, we signed with an agent, um, sort of, um, pre preemptively or mm-hmm <affirmative>. Or prematurely a little bit. You know, she was, she was, um, normally an agent is only interested if you have something kind of ready to sell because that's when they make their money, when they sell a manuscript to a publisher. Um, she sort of had me in a, a holding pattern waiting for me to finish, um, uh, this novel, uh, my con I got a phone call that the collection won one of the contests I'd entered, um, with a, a small press. I was, you know, very excited. I was Ha you know, yay. I have a book coming out. Yeah. Uh, my, since I did have an agent, she sort of came in at the, the back end to look, look at the contract and, and do some sort of coordinating with the press, um, and months passed.

Caitlin Horrocks:

And she was the one to kind of sound the first alarm saying, you know, like, I'm not getting replies to questions. I'm not getting responses to emails. Like, I don't think this contract was ever even countersigned. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Like, could you try and figure out like, what's going on there? Because this is like ringing some alarm bells for me. Um, and what was happening, it was, it was a university press whose existence was in, um, a lot of peril due to like state budget cuts and, and politicking. So there was this really extended period where it was like, oh, maybe they're being shut down. Maybe they're not, maybe they are, maybe they're not <laugh>. I, and then the outcome was that, um, it would survive just long enough. My, my book would be the last book they ever published. Oh. Turn out the lights and shut the door.

Caitlin Horrocks:

Wow. Most of the staff had been let go at this point. There was sort of one person, um, left. Uh, and I, at that point, um, you know, I, I got different types of advice about what to do. You know, some people were, you know, go ahead and let them publish it. You know, at least you have a book out there with your name on it. You know, that's, that's going to make your teaching career more secure. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, I, I was, uh, at Grand Valley at that point, um, and, uh, other people are like, you know, this is not, when you think about what you want a publisher to do for you in terms of help getting your work out there and, and helping it reach readers, you know, this situation is not gonna be able to give you that. Like you might as well at, at that point you might as well self-publish because Sure.

Caitlin Horrocks:

Your publisher is not a meaningful partner at this point. Um, so I made the decision to pull the book, uh, and went from having a book coming out to having no book, nothing coming out. Dang. Um, which was a really hard decision, but it was a thousand times the right one. Okay. Um, because the book, uh, so, so the book made the rounds of some other bigger publishers. You know, my, my agent did sort of try, try some big places, um, and you figure you're just gonna hear like, you know, no, not for me. Mm-hmm. No, thanks mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, and instead we got these lovely, they were projections <laugh>, but, uh, but they were like, oh, you know what, we, we, we loved this, but you know, we don't, we can't make the numbers work. We don't think it's gonna earn enough money or, you know, oh, we, we love this.

Caitlin Horrocks:

But we've already published a short story collection by like a young female writer. Mm-hmm. Um, this, you know, this coming year mm-hmm <affirmative>. Uh, or, um, yeah, just, it was, you know, all, all these factors where you can like the work and still not get to Yes. Um, so it ended up with a, a small press, a small nonprofit literary press, um, based in, in Louisville, Kentucky, not all publishing as New York, uh, called Saraband books. Um, and they did a, a beautiful job with it. Nice. Um, and it got, uh, a lot of, you know, just great critical attention and readership kind of beyond, um, my expectations or I think beyond their expectations, <laugh>. Uh, and, and it really was this sort of great, um, you know, not, not every publishing story has a happy ending, but I, for me, this, um, kind of vote of confidence in, uh, it, it mattered that I believed in the work that I really wanted the best for the book. That I didn't want the book to just come out as quickly as possible mm-hmm <affirmative>. In whatever form it could, that it was kind of worth, um, waiting and, and believing in my work enough to try and do right by it. Yeah. Awesome.

Grace Joaquin:

Sounds brave, but yes, you made the right decision rollercoaster. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and so you mentioned that it wasn't obviously, which we've heard of not a typical way that a book typ, you know, gets published. Um, how is, are your other two publish books published by the same press?

Caitlin Horrocks:

Yeah. Is that, is that,

Caitlin Horrocks:

Or, or publisher. I, I mean, I would've been, I would be happy to work with them again. They were, they were great. Um, my second two books were with, um, a different publisher, um, little Brown. Oh, yeah. Um, at that point I, like, I had an agent, um, I had a different agent, 'cause the first one had just left the business to do other things, um, which, which happens a lot, you realize there's a lot of turnover in publishing and like, all roles and levels. Uh, but, um, uh, just sold, uh, you know, I I had been working on a novel, a different novel than I had been working on at the beginning. I switched gears, uh, and, um, he, uh, circulated, um, a novel and a, a story collection, a second story collection, Life Among the Terranauts. Okay. Yeah. Um, so the, the Vexations and Life Among the Terranauts sold as a two book deal.

Grace Joaquin:

Oh, nice. Oh, nice. Yeah. That's awesome. Very cool. And, and with that, what have you found to be the most challenging part of being an author? Whether that's the publishing or some other aspect, and what's the most rewarding part

Caitlin Horrocks:

I challenging? Um, it probably is, it's publishing related. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Uh, in, in a few different ways. And, and one way is just kind of separating the writing from the publishing. Um, because the, the writing, you know, you, you hope that it's a space of like, play and, and creativity Yeah. And exploration. And if something, you know, you want something to feel kind of fresh and surprising and, and you need to be able to find that for yourself as a writer. And if you get too concerned about, you know, what's gonna sell or, you know, writing something that's like the thing that just hold a bunch of copies. Yeah. Um, you know, you can tie yourself in knots and, and you're not necessarily, you know, the, the work, um, might feel too calculated or stale mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, so just sort of trying to keep those two spheres separate I think is, is important, but, but challenging.

Caitlin Horrocks:

Uh, and then another challenge that I didn't realize, I think before I started, um, publishing is, you know, the, the finish line does often recede or, or things, uh, fall apart. There's just a lot of different ways for things to, um, not work out the way you hope. Um, and then sometimes they do, I don't want this to seem too gloomy, but, um, I just remember thinking like, oh, well the minute you get an agent, like that's where you have it made. Like that's that you're fine. Someone's working for you now. You're, yeah. They've got you. Yeah. Um, and in practice, you know, an agent can represent your book and fail to sell it <laugh>, um, or the agent can drop you or, you know, the agent can just go do something else. Uh, and then, uh, or you know, the agent sells your book to an editor who then leaves their job.

Caitlin Horrocks:

Oh, yeah. And your book is kind of orphaned at the press. Uh, there's just, there's a lot of moving parts. Mm-hmm. And there's many, many ways for something to kind of not go the way you hope or, um, somebody else gets the thing you wanted <laugh> or somebody. Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of, uh, uh, um, potential moments, you know, for, for jealousy or, or for envy. Yeah. Um, so I think just, you know, sort of just trying to keep your head on straight mm-hmm <affirmative>. And keep your head down and control what you can, you know, give up what you can't. Right. Um, and then also, you know, foster genuine kind of, uh, you know, being able to just be, be happy for other writers, um, be, you know, free in your admiration if somebody gets something you would've liked, you know, is, is, was that book good? If it wasn't good for them? <laugh>. Yeah. Uh, and, and just kind of holding onto that,

Grace Joaquin:

It, it sounds like there's a lot of potential heartbreak, but also a lot of joy. Right. But because even I think about authors who talk about, I know that they don't often get to choose their cover, for example, and there's just a lot out of your control and you have to sort of just have faith that it'll work out how it's supposed to or Yeah. Good people will have your book in their hands.

Caitlin Horrocks:

Yeah. And I, um, I think, yeah, there are those horror stories about like titles or covers and, and I'll just say I feel like I've been really lucky Yeah. Um, in that, uh, yeah. The, the people I've worked with have been really receptive to, to my opinions or my thoughts. I, I felt like it really was always a, a partnership. Like it was always a very collaborative relationship rather than adversarial. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. I think some, you know, um, because publishing can involve gatekeeping or, or heartbreak, I think sometimes people, um, are then kind of, you know, overly steel that they think they're gonna get into a bunch of fights where someone's trying to change their words mm-hmm <affirmative>. Or, or change their vision and, um, that that can happen, but it's, it's not the norm. Oh,

Grace Joaquin:

That's good to hear.

Caitlin Horrocks:

Um, so, so that the, the, the partnerships of publishing have been something rewarding. Um, and then maybe the two kind of most rewarding things, it's, you know, interactions with readers are, are so special mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, whether that's like, you know, in person after an event or, you know, just an, an email you get or, um, just, you know, anything where you realize like you've, you've made that connection Yeah. With

Megan Riksen:

Somebody. Yeah. It's really happening. People are actually reading it. Yeah.

Caitlin Horrocks:

Yeah. And so I wrote this thing, you know, on my, you know, computer on my porch.

Caitlin Horrocks:

Now it's like out there and, and mean something to somebody. So cool. Yeah. Um, and yeah, that, I mean, that's, that's magic that, that never gets old. I, and then, um, another, some maybe the other sort of most rewarding, can there be two most rewarding things? I think so I think Sure.

Caitlin Horrocks:

<laugh>. I guess there's, there's sort of an outward one and an inward one, just, just like the satisfaction of, um, so I mean writing, yeah. I mean, it's a lot of just like moving, you know, pixels around on a screen, talking about imaginary people. Yeah. You know, it, it's very, um, ephemeral and, and amorphous and, um, just kind of sitting with something where you've just been, you know, poking at the character and rearranging the words for a long time and trying to really sort of get, get a scene Right. Or get a moment Right. Or just get like a sentence. Right. Uh, and kind of reading it back over and feeling like, yeah. Like I, I, I did it. Like I, I did the thing I wanted to do. Yes. Um, and that's really, really, uh, satisfying. Awesome.

Megan Riksen:

Awesome. So what advice would you give or do you already give to students who want to be published who are maybe just starting to consider what that might be like?

Caitlin Horrocks:

I, something I feel strongly about is that I, the goal is not just like to get published. Right. Okay. Um, the goal is to publish work you feel good about mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, in a venue that you feel good about being in, um, partnered with people who are going to do more for your work than you can do for yourself. Um, there are sort of so many, um, you know, there's a million tiny online magazines, there's a million self-publishing tools. It's, it's not actually that hard to just get your work out there to just do it Sure. In some form or another. Yeah. So if, you know, if you are interested in pursuing, um, traditional publication or, you know, different publishing options, just being really sort of patient and really confident, uh, and, and giving your, your work the respect and the time that it takes to, to really think about, you know, what makes sense for, for this book or this project for me, who's really gonna be able to, to do right by this mm-hmm <affirmative>. And help it reach readers that, you know, like, I can't reach by myself. Mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Grace Joaquin:

Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Yeah. That's great advice. Um, and, and sort of along with that, you teach writing, so what advice or what tips do you have to make something, you know, you mentioned you want people to put writing out that they're proud of, that's their best, you know, what, what would you give for advice on how to make good writing <laugh>?

Caitlin Horrocks:

Sure. So, I mean, a question that I think, um, we should always ask ourselves about a creative project, probably not at the first draft. I think if you ask this from the very beginning, it would be kind of creatively paralyzing, <laugh>. Um, but maybe at some point, you know, sort of like, uh, maybe you have a draft down and you're, you're working on the revision process. Um, how is this the story that only you can write? Uh, or, you know, how is this the, the essay or the poem that only you can write? And I think it, it does sometimes feel like a scary question. Yeah. When, whenever you pose it, um, you know, if, if it's a memoir, maybe the answer seems, you know, pretty obvious it's this thing that happened to me and it happened to me and nobody else <laugh>. So. Right. You know, it's, that's what makes this mine.

Caitlin Horrocks:

Um, but with other genres, you know, you, you think about, um, okay, you know, how, how is this the story that only I can write? Um, how is it, you know, generally we're writing, um, you know, we're inspired by the things that we've already enjoyed and already loved, but we don't wanna just replicate it. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. You know, we wanna put our own spin on it. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, so thinking about, you know, how is this, um, what, what is it that I do and that I do well and that I'm proud of? And how am I bringing that to the page?

Megan Riksen:

Right. Great. Yeah, that's such helpful advice. We really, really appreciate you being here, Caitlin. Thank you so much. And I, hopefully everybody was just inspired by this conversation. I know I was, and we'll be sure to include some of Caitlin's book recs in our show notes, so definitely check those out. We'll, of course also include links to her books, which, you know, just so you, so you can remember what these are is Life Among the Terranauts, This is Not Your City, and The Vexations. So be sure to check those out. And now I'd just like to thank everyone for listening, and we hope you tune in to a future episode soon.